Since the 1980s, I've always been on Team Cyndi, and it bugged me that Madonna's star seemed to shine so much brighter. But now I see that Cyndi was playing an entirely different game.
I love both. However I’ve seen Cyndi several times. Pre pandemic she was touring with Rod Stewart What a show! Twice. I saw Madonna once about twenty years ago with 3 daughters. She was an hour late for her own show. Came on stage and never apologized. I still love both but would never see Madonna again…cause she is rude😂
"Kathryn Dawn Lang OC AOE (born November 2, 1961), known by her stylized stage name k.d. lang, is a Canadian pop and country singer-songwriter" From right next door to me: Alberta. It was not well received when she came out... as a vegetarian. : )
I’ve always been a girl that wants to have fun instead of a material girl (even if I still like to Vogue at times) But with a five octive range, Cyndi just has talent oozing out of her pores. Thanks for the insight into my life in the 80’s.
As a non-creative, I loved reading your perspective on this and as a child of the 80’s I’m here for the “ cynical, bitter take on American culture” all.day.long. Your newsletters make my day! Always a great read.
OMG you read my mind. I always thought maybe I don't have a rich enough life because I too actually think about those two and remember their 80's kind of rivalry and evaluate where their careers are now. I was team Cyndi and you have spot on nailed it. I always thought that Cyndi hooking up with that wrestler Lou Albino tanked her career, and reading her book gave insight into her bad career moves. Now when I see Cindy on those psoriasis commercials they play all the time in the US I think she defines aging gracefully and with Madonna, she has just aged. And the Cyndi blues CD and dance CDs are great!!!
Yeah, the wrestling thing was bad but she just didn't care. She is the epitome of graceful aging! I've interviewed her, and I found her lovely. But the accent is not an act! I'm still a huge fan...
May 9, 2023Liked by Brent Hartinger, Michael Jensen
As a kid in the 80s, I liked both but would've picked Madonna in a heartbeat if forced to choose. I didn't keep up w/ Cyndi. But Madonna's stuff...the most recent album I listen to is Immaculate Collection, which I guess means I retired her in the mid 90s.
Haha, that's okay. It is kind of breathtaking to look over her career. It's not just that she's LASTED but that she was actually relevant for 20+ years of those career.
Thank you for this article, well said. Even looking at Madonna vs Cyndi just from visual perspective. You can see and feel who is the real artist expressing their inner "child", playfulness and happiness. I would always go with the "uncool, weird" and artistic people over a luxury branded diva. It just feels different and makes you want to have fun. But I have a different respect for Madonna as well - more in the brand & business field. Just lack the feeling of joy in most of her music and therefore there will be always Cyndi on my playlist and rarely Madonna.
I do also have a kind of respect for Madonna. But honestly, she's just personally not really my vibe, I guess. She really is the "cool kid" right down to her core.
I loved Madonna as a brand. The message I got from her Erotica and Bedtime Stories eras specifically, was that misogyny was a means to control behavior and a projection of insecurity. She said, “I’ll be the slut you already think I am.” It was difficult (and still is) to have a pop persona then explore mature issues. She did that and went far beyond. I also loved how she reinvented herself, her sound, her look, for each album. Her versatility was unmatched.
I didn’t follow Cyndi’s career and only learned much later what contributions she’s made the whole time. Cyndi was just a different type of artist to me. Madonna made more impact.
This is an interesting take. Honestly, I've never ever liked Madonna, so I've never taken her very seriously. I always thought her message was: "I will do whatever it takes to shock people!" And rather than being "subversive" and "revolutionary," I always thought her slut routine was EXACTLY what her audience wanted -- it challenged no one except their parents. But as I get older, I must concede that there may have been more than going on, at least with certain albums and certain songs. She WAS ahead of her time on LGBTQ issues, and just on the level of pop and image, she definitely was able to reinvent herself in interesting way.
I suppose I'll never appreciate her -- I'm just not a bomb-thrower, in-your-face type. That always seems like posturing to me, and I can't stand self-promoters.
For someone who was in my early teens and exploring my identity as a sexual being, to have someone out there, saying they weren’t sorry for frank expression and her videos being relegated to late night because *I* was not supposed to see her, it was revolutionary for me at the time. Whereas now there are many many more out artists, my first look at queer people on tv was her Vogue video. Sure, not a nuanced picture, but the people in it were some real icons.
It has only been as I’ve gotten older that I don’t see newer artists the same way. They seem in a rush for attention, shock value, and baiting. I’m not sure Madonna had any such hope people would accept her truly, just want her for the revenue she generated, but it was the dance she was in.
I really thought after Madonna's 1998 release, "Ray of Light," that she had turned the curve... that she was growing with me. This was short lived though. I still admire both Madonna and Cyndi... just in different ways.
I hear you. I remember loving Material Girl and then later Hanky Panky. But then I realized she wasn't being ironic either time, just literal, and I lost a lot of interest. Ray of Light, yes, her most mature work
There was never a Madonna vs Cyndi face-off or anything of the kind .. not by MTV or the record companies or the artists themselves. They have both contributed enormously artistically and as well as to the LGBTQ community and other social causes. Nothing and no one is served by pitting them against each other in this fashion.
In fairness, I explicitly say in the article that the "dispute" was wrong and manufactured. I used that original framing to make what I see as a more nuanced point, from the perspective of 40 years later, that there really was a fundamental difference between the two, and there are interesting lessons to be drawn from both about art and commerce. But reasonable people can disagree whether I pulled it off. Thanks for commenting.
I have always been Cindi all the way. She is a variety of talent and always shines. A true work of art…
I agree! :-)
I love both. However I’ve seen Cyndi several times. Pre pandemic she was touring with Rod Stewart What a show! Twice. I saw Madonna once about twenty years ago with 3 daughters. She was an hour late for her own show. Came on stage and never apologized. I still love both but would never see Madonna again…cause she is rude😂
I feel that way about kd Lang. Will never forgive her for her selfish show. 8 songs! No explanation or apology
What! I'm taking away her polite Canadian citizenship right now. Great article btw (and I'm not just being polite)
Wait. Who's Canadian? And how do I not know this???
"Kathryn Dawn Lang OC AOE (born November 2, 1961), known by her stylized stage name k.d. lang, is a Canadian pop and country singer-songwriter" From right next door to me: Alberta. It was not well received when she came out... as a vegetarian. : )
Yes. Duh. I'm an idiot. I knew that. And that's funny about the vegetarian thing!
Oh! kd lang. Sorry, didn't see the threat. Yes! I'm still mad! Take it away!
Er. THREAD, not threat.
I’ve always been a girl that wants to have fun instead of a material girl (even if I still like to Vogue at times) But with a five octive range, Cyndi just has talent oozing out of her pores. Thanks for the insight into my life in the 80’s.
Haha thanks! 😍 Yeah, that VOICE
Great fun to read this and such a great insight into creativity, thank you! x
Thank you, very nice of you to say. :-)
Well said! Traveling as you do, to me seems to be artistic too. In the creative way you write and incorporate photography.
Thank you. And I think you're right, it has been artistically satisfying..never thought of it quite like that. 😉
As a non-creative, I loved reading your perspective on this and as a child of the 80’s I’m here for the “ cynical, bitter take on American culture” all.day.long. Your newsletters make my day! Always a great read.
So lovely of you to say. ❤️
This was not only a great read, but an interesting analogy to any creative person’s own path!
Thank you very much!
OMG you read my mind. I always thought maybe I don't have a rich enough life because I too actually think about those two and remember their 80's kind of rivalry and evaluate where their careers are now. I was team Cyndi and you have spot on nailed it. I always thought that Cyndi hooking up with that wrestler Lou Albino tanked her career, and reading her book gave insight into her bad career moves. Now when I see Cindy on those psoriasis commercials they play all the time in the US I think she defines aging gracefully and with Madonna, she has just aged. And the Cyndi blues CD and dance CDs are great!!!
Yeah, the wrestling thing was bad but she just didn't care. She is the epitome of graceful aging! I've interviewed her, and I found her lovely. But the accent is not an act! I'm still a huge fan...
A true non-conformist. I saw Kinky Boots on TV and was blown away.
As a kid in the 80s, I liked both but would've picked Madonna in a heartbeat if forced to choose. I didn't keep up w/ Cyndi. But Madonna's stuff...the most recent album I listen to is Immaculate Collection, which I guess means I retired her in the mid 90s.
Haha, that's okay. It is kind of breathtaking to look over her career. It's not just that she's LASTED but that she was actually relevant for 20+ years of those career.
Thank you for this article, well said. Even looking at Madonna vs Cyndi just from visual perspective. You can see and feel who is the real artist expressing their inner "child", playfulness and happiness. I would always go with the "uncool, weird" and artistic people over a luxury branded diva. It just feels different and makes you want to have fun. But I have a different respect for Madonna as well - more in the brand & business field. Just lack the feeling of joy in most of her music and therefore there will be always Cyndi on my playlist and rarely Madonna.
You're very welcome.
I do also have a kind of respect for Madonna. But honestly, she's just personally not really my vibe, I guess. She really is the "cool kid" right down to her core.
I loved Madonna as a brand. The message I got from her Erotica and Bedtime Stories eras specifically, was that misogyny was a means to control behavior and a projection of insecurity. She said, “I’ll be the slut you already think I am.” It was difficult (and still is) to have a pop persona then explore mature issues. She did that and went far beyond. I also loved how she reinvented herself, her sound, her look, for each album. Her versatility was unmatched.
I didn’t follow Cyndi’s career and only learned much later what contributions she’s made the whole time. Cyndi was just a different type of artist to me. Madonna made more impact.
This is an interesting take. Honestly, I've never ever liked Madonna, so I've never taken her very seriously. I always thought her message was: "I will do whatever it takes to shock people!" And rather than being "subversive" and "revolutionary," I always thought her slut routine was EXACTLY what her audience wanted -- it challenged no one except their parents. But as I get older, I must concede that there may have been more than going on, at least with certain albums and certain songs. She WAS ahead of her time on LGBTQ issues, and just on the level of pop and image, she definitely was able to reinvent herself in interesting way.
I suppose I'll never appreciate her -- I'm just not a bomb-thrower, in-your-face type. That always seems like posturing to me, and I can't stand self-promoters.
But you have given me food for thought!
For someone who was in my early teens and exploring my identity as a sexual being, to have someone out there, saying they weren’t sorry for frank expression and her videos being relegated to late night because *I* was not supposed to see her, it was revolutionary for me at the time. Whereas now there are many many more out artists, my first look at queer people on tv was her Vogue video. Sure, not a nuanced picture, but the people in it were some real icons.
It has only been as I’ve gotten older that I don’t see newer artists the same way. They seem in a rush for attention, shock value, and baiting. I’m not sure Madonna had any such hope people would accept her truly, just want her for the revenue she generated, but it was the dance she was in.
Glad to provide some food for thought. 😊
Nice. I can see all that.
Love this article thank you
Thank you, Hazel!
Team cyndi Forever Great artist ilove cyndi from italy♥️♥️
Me too. Thanks!
I really thought after Madonna's 1998 release, "Ray of Light," that she had turned the curve... that she was growing with me. This was short lived though. I still admire both Madonna and Cyndi... just in different ways.
I hear you. I remember loving Material Girl and then later Hanky Panky. But then I realized she wasn't being ironic either time, just literal, and I lost a lot of interest. Ray of Light, yes, her most mature work
There was never a Madonna vs Cyndi face-off or anything of the kind .. not by MTV or the record companies or the artists themselves. They have both contributed enormously artistically and as well as to the LGBTQ community and other social causes. Nothing and no one is served by pitting them against each other in this fashion.
In fairness, I explicitly say in the article that the "dispute" was wrong and manufactured. I used that original framing to make what I see as a more nuanced point, from the perspective of 40 years later, that there really was a fundamental difference between the two, and there are interesting lessons to be drawn from both about art and commerce. But reasonable people can disagree whether I pulled it off. Thanks for commenting.