Please offer some advice. Let's suppose a traditionally masculine Gay couple in their mid-60's (older than you two Gents), want to follow in your travel footsteps. They're traveling in a predominantly Muslim region in Eastern Europe, or maybe in the Middle East. These two men are friendly, polite and respectful travelers and strike up a conversation with men in a mosque or other obvious environment that frowns upon or prohibits homosexuality. A local asks if the two men are related. Do they - SHOULD THEY - pretend to be brothers or cousins, so as not to offend anyone or endanger themselves? Or do they proclaim they are married to one another, are "Friends of Dorothy" and turn this simple, harmless inquiry about their relationship into a potentially explosive situation or even a "teachable moment?" I can appreciate you want to live with personal dignity. In this situation, one of the Gay men wants to fib the details to keep things, simple, light and safe. The other Gay man in this couple, feels he must speak his truth when asked. And that's when the fireworks will begin. As the internets seem to have very few normal, grounded Gay couples such as yourselves, please take a moment and share how you would handle this situation. One of the men in this couple wants to skip his way through this merry encounter and the other believes they will be confronted with being taken into custody, imprisoned, in which case, things go badly -- and not in a Gay sex fantasy way. Thank you! We found you from the Nomad Capitalist and look forward to following along with you. And BTW, determining how best to handle this is shockingly in 2023, one of our top concerns! (Thought we and the world were way past this!)
You gents(like me& spouse) have a SUPERPOWER! We're in our 60s too and it seems that we're in that sweet spot of being both Vital and yet Non-threatening. We've got lots of Muslim friends, some Gay---with acceptance in their families. My adopted son is Muslim so I'm fairly familiar with the culture. Back to AGE, this really is a wonderful time in your lives ❤️ and the World seems truly welcoming to us!
Meeting will be a DELIGHT! I'll publish our schedule and we'll gladly welcome you and Michael --- and any of your nomadic acolytes reading this ❤️ We're now on the west coast of Ireland in good company. Looking forward to reading all your appreciations of Cambodia!
Haha, yes, this is a great question, and we will definitely devote a future newsletter to it. I do tend to agree with Michael, that "speaking your truth" won't really change anything, and could potentially open you up to risk (even if the risk is very very small). I don't want to deny the question of person integrity/ethics, if that's what one person feels, but if the issue is "making a change," I also don't think this accomplishes this. I think to change minds, you need to engage on some other (personal) level, and then "come out." Doing it in reverse might often have the opposite effect. In short, I don't think the best choice is either option presented: Always Being Out, OR Never Coming Out. I would opt for Strategic Coming Out, where your personal safety is prioritized in the day to day, but where you push yourself to come out in places and to people where (a) you're safe, and (b) you will be heard and it make a difference. But more on this topic soon for sure!
Michael and Brent, You're both very kind and thoughtful and generous with your words and your time. It's very much appreciated and we thank you for your assistance in solving our quandary. The other half of this blessed union is a New Yorker through and through, a wee hot blooded and your knack for diplomacy is, well, lacking in his temperament. In those hostile situations, temper's flare and then we're off to the races. It's surprising where one can sometimes encounter anti-Gay sentiments, such as the comment section of Nomad Capitalist. I was getting it from all sides and this, from an online community that is supposed to be worldly and a wee more sophisticated. But I'm thankful that we found the two of you in the process and will continue to follow along. If I could ask you one more question: there are so many outlets to express oneself these days; where would you say you garner the best reaction/response or elicit the most participation? Some online sources must be more successful than others. I know it's your profession, but I can't even imagine how you are able to do it all! Anyway... All the best to you both!
I, too, was appalled by the comments at Nomad Capitalist. I didn't even bother wading in with those trolls.
I find closed Facebook groups to be far the best places. Gay specific ones include Bears Retiring in Europe, and Where Do Gays Retire? Non-gay but very gay-friendly ones include Go With Less and Senior Nomads.
What a great question. In fact, I think we're going to write an entire new newsletter on the topic. (We haven't written about it before, but it's always worth more thought!)
For starters, I think it HIGHLY unlikely that outing yourself anywhere outside of Saudi Arabia is going to end up jailed. That just isn't how the world works in my experience. No, if you start making out in the mosque, well, then all bets are off. But just saying me and this fellow here are married is much more likely to result in worse than a raised eyebrow and a possible end to the conversation.
For starters, Islam is very much about preaching treating your fellow man well and being hospitable. Outing yourself is probably likely to result in the comment being ignored.
That being said, safety is paramount and in a mosque with a bunch of strange people I don't know I wouldn't declare that I was gay either.
I also don't think that is how you end up having a teachable moment either. I think a teachable moment requires people getting to know each other without any of the big issues they might have getting in the way. Only later, after someone knows you are a kind, decent, well-meaning person is there a teachable moment when you can add in the fact you are gay which might cause
the person you hope to "teach" to go, "Hold on, I thought gay people were these weird perverts that I have nothing in common with. But these guys think my country is wonderful and enjoy simit, so maybe I should rethink my take on homosexuality a little bit."
I guess I'd also think there are other things these moments can teach as well that are just as important as being gay. I think so many Muslims have felt soooooo judged by the rest of the world but I personally am more focused on letting them know how interesting and lovely I think they are rather than worrying about what they think of our being gay.
Which isn't to say I don't care about how gay people are treated in those places. We absolutely do, which is why we write about those topics and meet with those folks as we travel.
Hopefully, you guys can talk this through and find a way that works for both of you. Love to hear anymore thoughts you might have.
I second all of this! Eastern Europe is amazing and so different from the usual places.
Being near a war zone is a strange, surreal thing. I lived in Vienna when the war in Yugoslavia was happening, and you never would have known it and they're only a train ride apart.
Great article Brent. We’re about to take our first dip into Eastern Europe (Croatia) in December. Admittedly, we are going then for the Schengen hop (which won’t be possible after Jan. 1). Your comments about history studies resonated and I’d love any recommendations you have for books that provide historical context to that region, and also Turkey, that have a narrative or even fictional approach (e.g., Michener’s Poland) as opposed to actual academic history books. Looking forward to Part 2!
Thank you! Alas, most of my reading has been blog stuff so far, and conversations with friends, which is admittedly not enough. I'm also a fiction guy, but English books about this area are rare -- or, like the Cellist of Sarajevo (which I also liked), are criticized for being written by Westerners.
Croatia is a good starting point, but I'd recommend a swing into Bosnia and Herzegovina (one country with two names) if you can swing it. It's really close but also a world apart!
We both read The Cellist of Sarajevo, which gave a great feel of what it must've been like there during the war. I've got an entire list of Turkey books I want to get to!
This is actually very motivating for me to check out Eastern Europe. I'm not sure why I found myself hesitant - perhaps I was worried about the language barrier? Have you two been to Slovenia? I've heard it is beautiful and I'm excited to make it one of the Eastern European countries I visit :)
The language issue has really not been a problem for us. In the tourist industry, and among younger people, English is very very common in most of these countries. And people are very hospitable regardless! Not a lot of judgment for those who don't speak the local language.
Thank you for the reassurance, Brent! my 2nd language in Japanese so I don't think that will help me much, but I also tend to pick up languages quickly, so I'm the type to learn a few words or phrases wherever I go. Knowing that English is so common is a confidence-booster too :)
Well, we were very hesitant at first too, so you're reaction is very normal. We only stopped very briefly in Slovenia on a cruise but very much want to go back at some point.
Sorry, Brent, I was speaking euphemistically regarding time. We are in the US til mid-November. We will go back for sure as we both liked it so much. We have vowed to go back to Croatia if only to see some of the interior.
Yep. Those gorgeous brochures reel them in, as do enthusiastic travel writers. Maybe we are our own worst enemies for posting our beautiful photos (well, Michael’s are beautiful)…..
Great article. I’m a digital nomad in Istanbul but visited Croatia this year. My itinerary next year will be The Balkans and Eastern Europe. Like you I’ve discovered so much, and the Ottoman Empire is truly fascinating.
Only discovered you these last couple of months, but really appreciate your work. Cheers Dom.
Not sure whether to be glad you wrote this or not. We too love Eastern Europe for many of the same reasons you’ve mentioned. But we are also aware that as word gets out, our refuge from the Schengen will gradually inundated with tourists. We like being the only Americans on the beach in Varna, Bulgaria or the only ones this week at the Sibiu, Romania daily market. We tend to interact with local residents this way rather than English speaking tourists. “Best kept secrets” should maybe be kept a secret!
Are those gorgeous raspberries, blackberries, and blueberries still available? I swear, they were picked the morning before they were being sold. And soooo cheap! Our apartment was just three blocks away.
Yes, it's complicated. But so many of the locals say, "Yes! Tell people to come here! We need the business!" But I suppose much of Eastern Europe is destined to end up like Croatia -- which is basically indistinguishable from Western Europe now, tourism-wise. It's always a tension, I guess.
Have you made it to the salt mines? We never did, but I'm still curious about them.
This is so so true. Extended time in the Eastern Bloc while the wall was still up, with family behind the wall, direct connection to a less polished reality makes all the difference. A meaningful life.
Please offer some advice. Let's suppose a traditionally masculine Gay couple in their mid-60's (older than you two Gents), want to follow in your travel footsteps. They're traveling in a predominantly Muslim region in Eastern Europe, or maybe in the Middle East. These two men are friendly, polite and respectful travelers and strike up a conversation with men in a mosque or other obvious environment that frowns upon or prohibits homosexuality. A local asks if the two men are related. Do they - SHOULD THEY - pretend to be brothers or cousins, so as not to offend anyone or endanger themselves? Or do they proclaim they are married to one another, are "Friends of Dorothy" and turn this simple, harmless inquiry about their relationship into a potentially explosive situation or even a "teachable moment?" I can appreciate you want to live with personal dignity. In this situation, one of the Gay men wants to fib the details to keep things, simple, light and safe. The other Gay man in this couple, feels he must speak his truth when asked. And that's when the fireworks will begin. As the internets seem to have very few normal, grounded Gay couples such as yourselves, please take a moment and share how you would handle this situation. One of the men in this couple wants to skip his way through this merry encounter and the other believes they will be confronted with being taken into custody, imprisoned, in which case, things go badly -- and not in a Gay sex fantasy way. Thank you! We found you from the Nomad Capitalist and look forward to following along with you. And BTW, determining how best to handle this is shockingly in 2023, one of our top concerns! (Thought we and the world were way past this!)
You gents(like me& spouse) have a SUPERPOWER! We're in our 60s too and it seems that we're in that sweet spot of being both Vital and yet Non-threatening. We've got lots of Muslim friends, some Gay---with acceptance in their families. My adopted son is Muslim so I'm fairly familiar with the culture. Back to AGE, this really is a wonderful time in your lives ❤️ and the World seems truly welcoming to us!
Hey Frank!!! Haha, yeah vital and non-threatening is a pretty good place to be, I think. How interesting about your son.
We have to meet one of these months. We're LOVING Cambodia.
Meeting will be a DELIGHT! I'll publish our schedule and we'll gladly welcome you and Michael --- and any of your nomadic acolytes reading this ❤️ We're now on the west coast of Ireland in good company. Looking forward to reading all your appreciations of Cambodia!
Haha, yes, this is a great question, and we will definitely devote a future newsletter to it. I do tend to agree with Michael, that "speaking your truth" won't really change anything, and could potentially open you up to risk (even if the risk is very very small). I don't want to deny the question of person integrity/ethics, if that's what one person feels, but if the issue is "making a change," I also don't think this accomplishes this. I think to change minds, you need to engage on some other (personal) level, and then "come out." Doing it in reverse might often have the opposite effect. In short, I don't think the best choice is either option presented: Always Being Out, OR Never Coming Out. I would opt for Strategic Coming Out, where your personal safety is prioritized in the day to day, but where you push yourself to come out in places and to people where (a) you're safe, and (b) you will be heard and it make a difference. But more on this topic soon for sure!
Michael and Brent, You're both very kind and thoughtful and generous with your words and your time. It's very much appreciated and we thank you for your assistance in solving our quandary. The other half of this blessed union is a New Yorker through and through, a wee hot blooded and your knack for diplomacy is, well, lacking in his temperament. In those hostile situations, temper's flare and then we're off to the races. It's surprising where one can sometimes encounter anti-Gay sentiments, such as the comment section of Nomad Capitalist. I was getting it from all sides and this, from an online community that is supposed to be worldly and a wee more sophisticated. But I'm thankful that we found the two of you in the process and will continue to follow along. If I could ask you one more question: there are so many outlets to express oneself these days; where would you say you garner the best reaction/response or elicit the most participation? Some online sources must be more successful than others. I know it's your profession, but I can't even imagine how you are able to do it all! Anyway... All the best to you both!
I, too, was appalled by the comments at Nomad Capitalist. I didn't even bother wading in with those trolls.
I find closed Facebook groups to be far the best places. Gay specific ones include Bears Retiring in Europe, and Where Do Gays Retire? Non-gay but very gay-friendly ones include Go With Less and Senior Nomads.
What a great question. In fact, I think we're going to write an entire new newsletter on the topic. (We haven't written about it before, but it's always worth more thought!)
For starters, I think it HIGHLY unlikely that outing yourself anywhere outside of Saudi Arabia is going to end up jailed. That just isn't how the world works in my experience. No, if you start making out in the mosque, well, then all bets are off. But just saying me and this fellow here are married is much more likely to result in worse than a raised eyebrow and a possible end to the conversation.
For starters, Islam is very much about preaching treating your fellow man well and being hospitable. Outing yourself is probably likely to result in the comment being ignored.
That being said, safety is paramount and in a mosque with a bunch of strange people I don't know I wouldn't declare that I was gay either.
I also don't think that is how you end up having a teachable moment either. I think a teachable moment requires people getting to know each other without any of the big issues they might have getting in the way. Only later, after someone knows you are a kind, decent, well-meaning person is there a teachable moment when you can add in the fact you are gay which might cause
the person you hope to "teach" to go, "Hold on, I thought gay people were these weird perverts that I have nothing in common with. But these guys think my country is wonderful and enjoy simit, so maybe I should rethink my take on homosexuality a little bit."
I guess I'd also think there are other things these moments can teach as well that are just as important as being gay. I think so many Muslims have felt soooooo judged by the rest of the world but I personally am more focused on letting them know how interesting and lovely I think they are rather than worrying about what they think of our being gay.
Which isn't to say I don't care about how gay people are treated in those places. We absolutely do, which is why we write about those topics and meet with those folks as we travel.
Hopefully, you guys can talk this through and find a way that works for both of you. Love to hear anymore thoughts you might have.
I second all of this! Eastern Europe is amazing and so different from the usual places.
Being near a war zone is a strange, surreal thing. I lived in Vienna when the war in Yugoslavia was happening, and you never would have known it and they're only a train ride apart.
Thank you! Yes, this is truly one of my favorite places in the world now. (A train ride apart, but a world away.)
That kind of separation would truly be surreal. I can't imagine...
Great article Brent. We’re about to take our first dip into Eastern Europe (Croatia) in December. Admittedly, we are going then for the Schengen hop (which won’t be possible after Jan. 1). Your comments about history studies resonated and I’d love any recommendations you have for books that provide historical context to that region, and also Turkey, that have a narrative or even fictional approach (e.g., Michener’s Poland) as opposed to actual academic history books. Looking forward to Part 2!
Thank you! Alas, most of my reading has been blog stuff so far, and conversations with friends, which is admittedly not enough. I'm also a fiction guy, but English books about this area are rare -- or, like the Cellist of Sarajevo (which I also liked), are criticized for being written by Westerners.
Croatia is a good starting point, but I'd recommend a swing into Bosnia and Herzegovina (one country with two names) if you can swing it. It's really close but also a world apart!
We both read The Cellist of Sarajevo, which gave a great feel of what it must've been like there during the war. I've got an entire list of Turkey books I want to get to!
This is actually very motivating for me to check out Eastern Europe. I'm not sure why I found myself hesitant - perhaps I was worried about the language barrier? Have you two been to Slovenia? I've heard it is beautiful and I'm excited to make it one of the Eastern European countries I visit :)
The language issue has really not been a problem for us. In the tourist industry, and among younger people, English is very very common in most of these countries. And people are very hospitable regardless! Not a lot of judgment for those who don't speak the local language.
Thank you for the reassurance, Brent! my 2nd language in Japanese so I don't think that will help me much, but I also tend to pick up languages quickly, so I'm the type to learn a few words or phrases wherever I go. Knowing that English is so common is a confidence-booster too :)
Well, we were very hesitant at first too, so you're reaction is very normal. We only stopped very briefly in Slovenia on a cruise but very much want to go back at some point.
Maybe we'll end up there at the same time :)
Hope to bump into you guys one day.
Stay safe D x
We hope to see you as well!
Well written, Brent, and having travelled most of the same place you have over the last year I can say you're bang on! I look forward to the 2nd part.
Thank you!
Sorry, Brent, I was speaking euphemistically regarding time. We are in the US til mid-November. We will go back for sure as we both liked it so much. We have vowed to go back to Croatia if only to see some of the interior.
Yep. Those gorgeous brochures reel them in, as do enthusiastic travel writers. Maybe we are our own worst enemies for posting our beautiful photos (well, Michael’s are beautiful)…..
Great article. I’m a digital nomad in Istanbul but visited Croatia this year. My itinerary next year will be The Balkans and Eastern Europe. Like you I’ve discovered so much, and the Ottoman Empire is truly fascinating.
Only discovered you these last couple of months, but really appreciate your work. Cheers Dom.
Thank you, Dom! Istanbul is now one of my favorite cities in the world. Can't wait to go back!
Not sure whether to be glad you wrote this or not. We too love Eastern Europe for many of the same reasons you’ve mentioned. But we are also aware that as word gets out, our refuge from the Schengen will gradually inundated with tourists. We like being the only Americans on the beach in Varna, Bulgaria or the only ones this week at the Sibiu, Romania daily market. We tend to interact with local residents this way rather than English speaking tourists. “Best kept secrets” should maybe be kept a secret!
Are those gorgeous raspberries, blackberries, and blueberries still available? I swear, they were picked the morning before they were being sold. And soooo cheap! Our apartment was just three blocks away.
Yes, it's complicated. But so many of the locals say, "Yes! Tell people to come here! We need the business!" But I suppose much of Eastern Europe is destined to end up like Croatia -- which is basically indistinguishable from Western Europe now, tourism-wise. It's always a tension, I guess.
Have you made it to the salt mines? We never did, but I'm still curious about them.
This is so so true. Extended time in the Eastern Bloc while the wall was still up, with family behind the wall, direct connection to a less polished reality makes all the difference. A meaningful life.
thank you! Sounds like you had interesting experiences, indeed.