Ooof. It might help to read some texts on the construction of race? Racism is real, but race very much is not, and that's sort of the root of the problem. One great book I've read recently is Caste by Isabel Wilkerson--highly recommended.
I came here to say pretty much what Monica did. Racism is a belief that superficial physical differences among human beings signal significant and immutable differences, and there's no basis for that in biological science. Plus historians (the kind with history PhDs) have shown beyond shadow of a doubt how and why racism developed , and how it gave rise to the concept of race. That's why every time an official form in America asks for my "race", I cringe.
Racism is not synonymous with xenophobia, prejudice, or discrimination, despite how it's often used. And as the inbred matriarch of a remarkably diverse family, I can only add that your "Progressive" friend who thinks racism is present in every interaction among people of different "races".... is an idiot.
Sorry, Brent. I appreciate your efforts to sort it all out, and even reading can be fraught (Michelle Alexander and James Baldwin are not "plenty of Black scholars", and, indeed, with respect, not scholars as such, but writers working within the public sphere. I know the difference, because I've been both.)
We have a problem right now with great scholarship not being available to the public in readable form, and most of the public not being willing to read books-- yes, I realize that's not you! It's worth reading -- or dipping into--histories for the public written by historians, like Alan Taylor's American Colonies -- long but very readable and superb. The work on racism I mentioned is baked into early American history.
In traveling to dozens of countries over the past 30 years, I've seen racism in all countries, from all races. And yes, I suppose there are different levels of it, and in the details. Some people think racism is just a white thing. But there's a lot of racism among so many different ethnic and indigenous groups, even between each other. Certainly, it's often more subtle and not institutionalized. But I've been in so many places, situations, and conversations where prejudicial comments come up about some other group/people/tribe/religious group they deem inferior. I don't know what to think of it, other than the fact that a certain level of racism and prejudice is probably a normal part of human behavior. People will make inferences and assumptions about groups based on their lived experience.
This is my experience too. Except I would add I don't think "lived experience" is always very accurate. Our brains are wired to find patterns even where they don't exist, I think, and we too often overly fear "the other."
But travel has definitely changed my perspective! And I'm not sure America's cartoon view of racism is very helpful.
Yeah, I misstated that. I'm saying upbringing, culture, community, etc plays a role in shaping prejudice and racism here, that happens in other countries as well.
I’ll comment specifically on the part about Europe, as a European myself (France).
Something I wish we talked about more is *why* people migrate to particular European countries in the first place.
Migration isn’t decided randomly. People tend to go where they already have family, friends, community, language skills, etc. (For example: in France, more than half of immigrants from the Maghreb who arrived after age 15 cited family as their primary reason for migration).
So when French people complain about “Arab immigration,” I sometimes wish they would stop for a moment and remember the history that created some of these connections.
Why do they have family in France? Why do they speak French?
Algeria was French until 1962. Morocco and Tunisia until 1956. France also controlled large parts of West and Central Africa.
So when someone from a former French colony chooses France as a destination... Is it really so mysterious? There are historical, linguistic, family, and cultural connections between these countries... that were created (i.e. FORCED!) by France itself.
And the same logic applies elsewhere. The UK has a similar history in India, Pakistan, Nigeria, etc. People don't choose destinations in a vacuum. Our colonial history created migration networks and economic relationships that continue to shape where people move TODAY.
So what exactly are we complaining about?
Are we complaining that people from countries formerly colonized by European powers are using the connections that we created to seek better economic opportunities?
Because there is something deeply ironic about that 😅
Europe spent CENTURIES extracting wealth, reorganizing economies, drawing borders, imposing languages and institutions... and then seems surprised when the historical connections created by that process continue to exist today!
And this isn't about some distant colonial past three centuries ago. Some European companies continue to have enormous interests in African economies.
To what extent are our European decisions STILL contributing to instability, conflict, economic dependency, or lack of opportunity in some of these regions... and therefore contributing to the very migration pressures we complain about?
Because if we are still involved in shaping the political and economic conditions people are trying to escape, then perhaps we should be a little more cautious about treating their arrival as though it has nothing to do with us.
That doesn't mean every criticism of immigration is racist. It doesn't mean every concern about integration is illegitimate. And it certainly doesn't mean colonialism explains every individual migration decision.
But I do think we need to ask a much more uncomfortable question: Why are people coming here in the first place, and how much of the relationship between their country and ours was created, and continues to be shaped, by us?
Maybe before complaining about the people who arrive, we should take a better look at the history, as well as the present-day policies that make their arrival so unsurprising.
One example that still strikes me is how openly the Cowboys and Indians stereotype is still prevalent in Europe -- on candy, in cartoons, and in Hallowe'en costumes!
It's human nature to generalize based on experiences and information received from others. Driving down the road, one sees three separate one-car accidents, all involving Honda Accords: "Honda Accords are dangerous cars!" Withour considering the possibility of a coincidence, an anomaly. I'm an older, white, hetero male, and I hate to think, because of that, others assume I support Trumpism. But I'm sure many do.
It takes a strong character to fight those urges to generalize.
Americans in general have difficulty understanding and even talking about racism and how it operates in outside of the US, or even how things like colorism operates here in the US. I remember being part of a global organization doing some anti-racist development, and I was so surprised that one of the people pushing back hardest on the concepts was a woman from South America, and then I learned about the way whiteness is constructed among Latino’s and MENA (Middle East/Northern Africa) and my brain broke and I freshly understood that race is a social construct and it is constructed differently in different settings.
Perhaps racism has just really tribalism with a "polarizing" filter.
Like it or not, humans seem to have not evolved very far from our ape ancestors when it comes to gathering into "tribes" and fighting off anything or anyone that might threaten our community and what we consider to be right and "normal"... And the difference is, unlike other animals, we could actually learn about those other communities if we choose, but unfortunately, many humans never leave the comfort of their own tribe, which makes it easier for them to hold tight to what they believe is "right".
The thing that blew my mind the most was learning many years ago about how, among some in the black community, the "paper bag test" might determine how you were thought of by other people in the black community. That's when I realized just how deep and complex the whole subject is.
I find it very sad that we have these so called advanced more complex brains, and instead of using them for making life better for all of us, there are those who use that extra gray matter to justify their poor behaviors towards others. 😥
The trauma that oppressed/abused people experience, creating PTSD, is yet another detail for the generations. Only now can some access support. And so few humans are trauma-informed. Freeze. Fight. Flee. That can become our default.
Ooof. It might help to read some texts on the construction of race? Racism is real, but race very much is not, and that's sort of the root of the problem. One great book I've read recently is Caste by Isabel Wilkerson--highly recommended.
Caste should be required reading, imo
Absolutely. So many lights went on for me.
I came here to say pretty much what Monica did. Racism is a belief that superficial physical differences among human beings signal significant and immutable differences, and there's no basis for that in biological science. Plus historians (the kind with history PhDs) have shown beyond shadow of a doubt how and why racism developed , and how it gave rise to the concept of race. That's why every time an official form in America asks for my "race", I cringe.
Racism is not synonymous with xenophobia, prejudice, or discrimination, despite how it's often used. And as the inbred matriarch of a remarkably diverse family, I can only add that your "Progressive" friend who thinks racism is present in every interaction among people of different "races".... is an idiot.
Sorry, Brent. I appreciate your efforts to sort it all out, and even reading can be fraught (Michelle Alexander and James Baldwin are not "plenty of Black scholars", and, indeed, with respect, not scholars as such, but writers working within the public sphere. I know the difference, because I've been both.)
We have a problem right now with great scholarship not being available to the public in readable form, and most of the public not being willing to read books-- yes, I realize that's not you! It's worth reading -- or dipping into--histories for the public written by historians, like Alan Taylor's American Colonies -- long but very readable and superb. The work on racism I mentioned is baked into early American history.
Just downloaded the Kindle sample. Thanks for the recommendation.
Oh excellent. Happy reading.
In traveling to dozens of countries over the past 30 years, I've seen racism in all countries, from all races. And yes, I suppose there are different levels of it, and in the details. Some people think racism is just a white thing. But there's a lot of racism among so many different ethnic and indigenous groups, even between each other. Certainly, it's often more subtle and not institutionalized. But I've been in so many places, situations, and conversations where prejudicial comments come up about some other group/people/tribe/religious group they deem inferior. I don't know what to think of it, other than the fact that a certain level of racism and prejudice is probably a normal part of human behavior. People will make inferences and assumptions about groups based on their lived experience.
This is my experience too. Except I would add I don't think "lived experience" is always very accurate. Our brains are wired to find patterns even where they don't exist, I think, and we too often overly fear "the other."
But travel has definitely changed my perspective! And I'm not sure America's cartoon view of racism is very helpful.
Yeah, I misstated that. I'm saying upbringing, culture, community, etc plays a role in shaping prejudice and racism here, that happens in other countries as well.
Absolutely. It is all levels of depressing. 🫤
I’ll comment specifically on the part about Europe, as a European myself (France).
Something I wish we talked about more is *why* people migrate to particular European countries in the first place.
Migration isn’t decided randomly. People tend to go where they already have family, friends, community, language skills, etc. (For example: in France, more than half of immigrants from the Maghreb who arrived after age 15 cited family as their primary reason for migration).
So when French people complain about “Arab immigration,” I sometimes wish they would stop for a moment and remember the history that created some of these connections.
Why do they have family in France? Why do they speak French?
Algeria was French until 1962. Morocco and Tunisia until 1956. France also controlled large parts of West and Central Africa.
So when someone from a former French colony chooses France as a destination... Is it really so mysterious? There are historical, linguistic, family, and cultural connections between these countries... that were created (i.e. FORCED!) by France itself.
And the same logic applies elsewhere. The UK has a similar history in India, Pakistan, Nigeria, etc. People don't choose destinations in a vacuum. Our colonial history created migration networks and economic relationships that continue to shape where people move TODAY.
So what exactly are we complaining about?
Are we complaining that people from countries formerly colonized by European powers are using the connections that we created to seek better economic opportunities?
Because there is something deeply ironic about that 😅
Europe spent CENTURIES extracting wealth, reorganizing economies, drawing borders, imposing languages and institutions... and then seems surprised when the historical connections created by that process continue to exist today!
And this isn't about some distant colonial past three centuries ago. Some European companies continue to have enormous interests in African economies.
To what extent are our European decisions STILL contributing to instability, conflict, economic dependency, or lack of opportunity in some of these regions... and therefore contributing to the very migration pressures we complain about?
Because if we are still involved in shaping the political and economic conditions people are trying to escape, then perhaps we should be a little more cautious about treating their arrival as though it has nothing to do with us.
That doesn't mean every criticism of immigration is racist. It doesn't mean every concern about integration is illegitimate. And it certainly doesn't mean colonialism explains every individual migration decision.
But I do think we need to ask a much more uncomfortable question: Why are people coming here in the first place, and how much of the relationship between their country and ours was created, and continues to be shaped, by us?
Maybe before complaining about the people who arrive, we should take a better look at the history, as well as the present-day policies that make their arrival so unsurprising.
The levels are irony are very very deep! 🤣
I agree with this take 💯
One example that still strikes me is how openly the Cowboys and Indians stereotype is still prevalent in Europe -- on candy, in cartoons, and in Hallowe'en costumes!
Interesting. I did not pick up on this. Advocacy is important, isn't it?
It's human nature to generalize based on experiences and information received from others. Driving down the road, one sees three separate one-car accidents, all involving Honda Accords: "Honda Accords are dangerous cars!" Withour considering the possibility of a coincidence, an anomaly. I'm an older, white, hetero male, and I hate to think, because of that, others assume I support Trumpism. But I'm sure many do.
It takes a strong character to fight those urges to generalize.
Americans in general have difficulty understanding and even talking about racism and how it operates in outside of the US, or even how things like colorism operates here in the US. I remember being part of a global organization doing some anti-racist development, and I was so surprised that one of the people pushing back hardest on the concepts was a woman from South America, and then I learned about the way whiteness is constructed among Latino’s and MENA (Middle East/Northern Africa) and my brain broke and I freshly understood that race is a social construct and it is constructed differently in different settings.
Perhaps racism has just really tribalism with a "polarizing" filter.
Like it or not, humans seem to have not evolved very far from our ape ancestors when it comes to gathering into "tribes" and fighting off anything or anyone that might threaten our community and what we consider to be right and "normal"... And the difference is, unlike other animals, we could actually learn about those other communities if we choose, but unfortunately, many humans never leave the comfort of their own tribe, which makes it easier for them to hold tight to what they believe is "right".
The thing that blew my mind the most was learning many years ago about how, among some in the black community, the "paper bag test" might determine how you were thought of by other people in the black community. That's when I realized just how deep and complex the whole subject is.
I find it very sad that we have these so called advanced more complex brains, and instead of using them for making life better for all of us, there are those who use that extra gray matter to justify their poor behaviors towards others. 😥
What an interesting post that's created quite a conversation, and always a necessary one, no matter what. Discourse is good.
The trauma that oppressed/abused people experience, creating PTSD, is yet another detail for the generations. Only now can some access support. And so few humans are trauma-informed. Freeze. Fight. Flee. That can become our default.